Former Mexico international Omar Mendiburu has thrown his support behind Homeless World Cup national partner Street Soccer Mexico.

Omar Mendiburu

Former Mexico international Mendiburu enjoyed an illustrious playing career, representing Cruz Azul, Puebla and Tigres de México and twice winning the Mexican National Championship.

Mendiburu is keen to contribute his knowledge and passion for football into Street Soccer Mexico and will assist with the selection of the players to represent Mexico at the Mexico 2012 Homeless World Cup.

He said: “It’s very important to combine social work with football and Street Soccer Mexico gives a chance to young people that had little hope in their lives.”

Mendiburu is currently employed as a Technical Director by the Mexican Football Federation and he will train players and coaches through Street Soccer Mexico, hoping to introduce some of the most talented players to professional clubs.

He said: “Football is more than a simple sport; it’s a way of life. It teaches you about teamwork, how to be a leader, how to give the best effort into what you do. We want people to know that playing football improves health, can help to overcome addictions and play a large part in leading a better life.”

“I am so happy to be involved in Street Soccer Mexico and the Homeless World Cup. I will do my best because I really like what we have the chance to achieve.”

Champs de Mars, Paris, France is the stage for the 9th Paris 2011 Homeless World Cup from 21-28 August 2011. 

The Corporate Cup…kicks for a cause

Mohawk College Event Management students and Hamilton SportsXpress magazine teamed up recently to give back to the community. Melissa, Tasha, Lindsey and Amanda were given the opportunity to facilitate, plan and execute a sporting event of their choosing. On March 31st, the Mohawk team held the first Corporate Cup – Kicks for a Cause, a charity soccer tournament in support of Street Soccer Canada, at Goal’s Indoor Sports Club in Waterdown.

Street Soccer Canada (SSC) is a national organization that aims to engage and connect those affected by homelessness and poverty. By using the positive power of sport, SSC enriches and enhances lives by making unattainable experiences possible. Each year the organization selects a different team of individuals to represent Canada in the Homeless World Cup. It’s a wonderful opportunity to reach out to those who would otherwise never be able to experience the world stage. This year’s Homeless World Cup is taking place in Mexico City and the funds raised at the Corporate Cup are being used to assist the SSC team with its travel expenses.

The Corporate Cup event was an exciting day for all participants. For a fee of $300 per team of eight, participants were given the opportunity for a shot at winning the title. To inspire some healthy competition, organizers required all teams to represent a country in The World Cup themed event. Special guest and street soccer spokesperson, Olympian Kara Lang, was in attendance to stress the importance of events like the Corporate Cup. Food and beverages, t-shirts, OLG mugs and an after-party admission at Bo’s Sports Bar, were all included in the registration fee. Other initiatives to support the cause included pledges, a raffle, and various games as well as in- kind donations.

Overall the event was a success with team Argentina taking home the cup and SSC (Mexico) finishing a close second. All teams were provided with the opportunity to not only partake in the exciting tournament but to actually meet the people they were supporting. Everyone in attendance gained insight into the positive power of sport and had a fun and exciting day.

The Mohawk College team would like to thank Hamilton SportsXpress for providing us with this opportunity. We would also like to thank Street Soccer Canada for their involvement and support during the planning and facilitating of the tournament.

We would like to thank our major sponsors for the day: Inaria, Semtech, Lassonde, John Pellizari at United Trophy, Mark and Carol Cruden at the Midland McDonald’s, Decy and Steve Robillard with the Georgian Queen, The King’s Wharf Theatre, Midland Comfort Inn, Waterdown Walmart, OLG, Inn on the Twenty, Hamilton Tiger Cats, and Oakville Executive Golf Club.

We would also like to thank the people and businesses for their donations to our event: Thirsty Cactus, No Frills, Famous Players Burlington, Absolute Soccer, United Mobile, Epicure, Fortinos, Sobeys, Metro, Ann Coultrup, The Noonan Family, White Oak’s Golf Club, Art Gallery of Hamilton, Royal Botanical Gardens, and Aberfoyle Mill.

We cannot express our gratitude enough to our volunteers who helped make our event possible.

See you at the next Corporate Cup!

Street Soccer Teams Selection Process – HWC Mexico City October 6-14, 2012

In August of 2012 Street Soccer Canada staff will be travelling to various local street soccer sites across Canada to choose players to participate in the Homeless World Cup in Mexico City in October 6-14, 2012.  Whether at regular team play or locally organised tournaments a team of men and women will be chosen to represent Canada for their 9th appearance at the Homeless World Cup in Mexico City.

The selection process in collaboration with local organisers, staff and participants will take place with each local team individually or in a locally organized tournament.  Selection will be based on Homeless World Cup criteria in addition to a players duration of participation throughout the year, outlook and possibly interviews.  Street Soccer Canada staff will work with local organisers for times and dates to meet players and work with teams. Local teams will be responsible for the funding of the player in addition to identification for individuals selected.   Players must provide a valid passport as identification before selection by Street Soccer Canada is finalized.

Street Soccer Canada will provide all coaching and support staff as appropriate and will be coordinating travel and all associated events for Team Canada’s participation in the Homeless World Cup.  Street Soccer Canada undertakes a harm reduction approach and works within that philosophy for social inclusion.

By Sean Kolenko – North Shore Outlook

Published: March 9th/2012

Charles MacGregor, coach of the North Shore Salvation Army Shields, is helping coordinate the Western Canada Street Soccer Tournament in North Van on April 28 and 29.

Central Lonsdale’s Norseman Field will be a busy place in late April when 10 teams from across B.C. take to the pitch for the 2012 Western Canada Street Soccer tournament.

Charles MacGregor, coach of the host squad North Shore Shields, told The Outlook he originally planned on organizing an invitational tourney for April 28 and 29 until Vancouver Street Soccer League brass asked him if he’d be interested in broadening the scope of the event.

The tournament, he was told, could be the stage where four players from Western Canada are chosen to suit up for the Canadian national team — along with four from the east — to participate in this year’s Homeless World Cup in Mexico City.

MacGregor jumped at the offer.

“This is a big thing,” he said.

“This is the first time something like this has ever come to North Van.”

From the Vancouver area, both the men’s and women’s teams from the Portland Hotel Society will be taking part, as will the men’s sides from the Friendship Centre, Covenant House, Woodward’s, East Vancouver and Surrey. Squads from Kelowna and Victoria will be also be competing.

MacGregor said he’s hoping the added attention placed on the tournament will help draw residents to the games. It’s important, he stressed, to highlight the talent involved in street soccer and give the players a venue where they can be respected for their athletic abilities.

“This is about showing what these players are about but it’s also about getting out on the field, forgetting problem and being in a supportive group,” said MacGregor.

“And, hopefully, people are interested in it not because they’re homeless but because they’re good players.”

Helping MacGregor with the event is the North Vancouver Recreation Commission, One Team United and Vancouver Coastal Health, offering sleeping quarters for out-of-town teams, food and hygiene kits respectively.

Others who wish to volunteer can contact MacGregor at cmac57@yahoo.com

For more on the Vancouver Street Soccer League, visit vancouverstreetsoccer.com. Information on this year’s Homeless World Cup can be found at homelessworldcup.org.

For The Outlook’s past coverage on the North Shore Shields click here and the Homeless World Cup here.

skolenko@northshoreoutlook.com
twitter.com/seankolenko

The 10^th edition of the Homeless World Cup annual tournament will take place at Plaza de la Constitución, Mexico City from 6-14 October 2012.

The Palacio de Bellas Artes is the Mexico City Palace of Fine Arts

In what promises to be a great tournament the Mexico City 2012 Homeless World Cup will celebrate a decade of changing the lives of homeless people through football.

Record participation as 72 teams are announced for the Mexico City 2012 Homeless World Cup:

Mexico City 2012 Homeless World Cup (56 nations): Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, England, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Hong  Kong, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Ivory Coast, Japan, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, Moldova, Namibia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Scotland, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, USA, Vietnam, Wales, Zimbabwe.

Mexico City 2012 Women’s Homeless World Cup (16 nations):

Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, England, Hungary, India, Kyrgyz Republic, Mexico, Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway, Paraguay, Scotland, Uganda, USA.

Since 2003 the annual competition has been hosted by cities across the world as homeless players unite to celebrate improving their lives forever and spreading global awareness about the issue of homelessness.

The Mexico City 2012 Homeless World Cup tournament will take place at the Plaza de la Constitución, Zócalo, from 6- 14 October 2012.  For more information visit  http://www.homelessworldcup.org

It was a month ago when OpenFile first wrote about the soccer-pitch-to-be on the vacant lot at 58 West Hastings between Abbott and Carrall Streets.  As we mentioned in January, the idea was to make the lot the new home of the Vancouver Street Soccer League, which is managed by the Portland Hotel Society.

Today, the Vancouver Courier reports the pitch is at risk of falling into limbo because of an issue with city permits. Vicki Potter, Vancouver’s director of development services, told the Courier the site requires a permit to change the use of the property from commercial or residential to recreational. On top of that, another permit would likely be required to use the land recreationally. From the Courier

“Based on what we’ve heard that they want to do, because we’ve been asked for advice whether this activity or that activity requires permits, the last that we heard, it would require a permit,” said Potter. “We would call that a park or playground activity that would require permits because it potentially brings in traffic or noise to surrounding neighbourhoods.”

Potter said the cost of permits, including any for structures such as fencing, would depend on the land and the value of those structures.

“We would have expected before they started that they would have applied for permits,” Potter said.

Mark Townsend, the co-founder and director of the Portland Hotel Society, told the Courier Wednesday he was informed by email that permits weren’t needed. After meetings with the city, he said a manager with the department of planning wrote him to say permits were not required. Potter believes Townsend was misinformed.

Is this another case of a convoluted permit application process getting in the way of a worthwhile initiative?

Last month, OpenFile spoke to Hector and Randy, two members of the Downtown Eastside Homeless Soccer team, who both credited the program for helping to turn their lives around:

They say it’s helped them get clean and now get a job. “I have a baby coming,” says Randy. “ I just want to straighten my life up … I want to raise my lifestyle up in a good way.”

As is always the case when it concerns the City of Vancouver and permits, there is much more to the issue. For all the details, be sure to check out the Vancouver Courier article.  For more on the soccer league itself and some of the athletes, read out article here.

REPORTED BY
Emily Elias Reported on
January 17, 2012

Homeless Soccer Team Gets A New Home Pitch

The empty lot on the south side of Hastings between Abbott and Carrall is owned by developer Concord Pacific. In the past year it has been used for a variety of community events, including a DTES pow wow. Concord Pacific has not yet announced plans for the site. Photo by OpenFile.

Hector and Randy’s faces light up when they think about a vacant lot on West Hastings between Abbott and Carrall Streets.

It doesn’t look like much. It’ just a few logs and gnarled concrete from the former building that used to sit on top of the space.But to the two members of the Downtown Eastside Homeless Soccer team, it’s their new home field.

“It’s beautiful,” says Hector dressed in fluorescent work clothes. “It’s going to be very helpful.” “It’s fun. It’s cold. But we gotta do what we gotta do,” says Randy who believes this field will mean more opportunities to recruit more people in the community to play the game.

A few years ago, the men would have never thought they would be spending their days levelling the ground to get ready to install a soccer pitch.

Randy found himself on the streets after getting addicted to crystal meth. He ended up getting a spot in New Fountain Shelter and then a spot on Canada’s team for the Homeless World Cup in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in 2010.

Meanwhile, Hector heard about the program through a friend living in the Downtown Eastside. He had lost his job and found himself living on the streets. His involvement has taken him to the Homeless World Cup in Paris, France, last year. It’s also inspired him to work out 5 hours a day to in the hopes he will one day play for the Vancouver Whitecaps FC.

“I got to get my cardio back,” says Hector who is preparing for an open tryout. “They are looking for a lot of talent right now, but before I go for my trial I have to be ready.  Beating all those players is not going to be so easy.”

Both men credit the program for helping to turn their lives around. They say it’s helped them get clean and now get a job. “I have a baby coming,” says Randy. “ I just want to straighten my life up … I want to raise my lifestyle up in a good way.”

As they work behind a construction fence, people stop to chat about the space. Urban farm space will be at one end of the lot next to a carving circle and amphitheatre along with the soccer field the size of a large tennis court.

“We’ve got good feedback, like ‘good job’ and ‘keep it up’. We tell them that we are just volunteers and they say you are working hard for that,” says Randy as he beams with pride.

“We just want to get it done. Even cops stop by and say we’re doing a great job then ask us when we are going to play again. “

More people are getting on board with the Vancouver Street Soccer League in a neighborhood that communicates through word or mouth. Currently there are eight different teams within the Downtown Eastside.

Kailin See helps organize the program. She says the teams practice twice a week, and she says finding space has been a challenge. “It always comes down to dollars and we can’t afford playing space anywhere,” says See.

“Outside in the warmer months it’s not so bad,” says See. “But In the winter… You can’t in good conscience be asking people to play in the rain if they don’t have a change of clothes and gym space has been impossible full stop.“

Once the field is complete and homeless soccer players get a home, See says the group has new goal in mind. They want to raise $5 million dollars so they can host the Homeless World Cup in 2015.

“We are not even sure how or why it works the way that it does but this beautiful community has been created and these same players were totally in pretty desperate circumstances,” explains See. “Now the vast majority are housed very well, many of them are in stable healthy partnerships, many of them are working, their substance abuse issues are for the most part under control.

“And now they are building a soccer pitch for the upcoming generations of players that are going to come through this program. It’s totally remarkable in every way.”

Although there are more pressing matters ahead for the street soccer group. The pitch is set to open this week still need to find a name.

By Austin Kent 
Friday, February 3, 2012

When There’s Nowhere to Go But Soccer Practice

Billy Pagonis of Street Soccer Canada

The snow-soaked streets of Hamilton, Ontario are miserable enough in January, colder still without the luxury of a consistent address to call home. Sadly, a life of homelessness – or the looming threat thereof – is a distinct reality for close to 20 per cent of the industrial graveyard’s 500,000 residents.

Though general misfortune strikes individuals in the hapless community indiscriminately of age or personal condition, there does exist one equalizer that stands apart among the housing shelters and social services perilously tasked with making the hard life easier: the power of sport.

Sport as a therapeutic tool is a phenomenon easily cast aside by the majority, but immensely appreciated by anyone who’s ever felt it’s impact. It’s what’s made Street Soccer Canada such a valuable, if quiet, difference maker in the underprivileged community.

Tucked away in the neon-lit gymnasium of a former elementary school building in a dark corner of North Hamilton is a slice of normalcy, a desperately-sought source of salvation from the unforgiving world waiting outside. It presents in a game of indoor soccer.

Cradling his chin in the crook of his hand, Billy Pagonis overlooks the ceramic “field” in front of him. The squeak of sneakers and chorus of shouts are familiar sounds for any lifelong athlete. For Canadian Pagonis – a former professional soccer player by way of Switzerland and Germany – especially so.

It wasn’t long ago when the man, now pushing 50 years old, was a role model athlete, a devout child of the game committed to playing it often and playing it well. When the opportunity to sign a contract in Europe arose in May of 1992, he pounced and rode it well into the twilight of his physical prime.

As an athlete playing the game he’d always aspired to play, Pagonis lived a life of luxury, driving expensive cars and living his dream.

Today he rides the subway.

“I woke up every morning for almost 20 years in the professional lifestyle of a soccer player. I just lived soccer and breathed soccer,” says Pagonis. “Soccer got me my education, my friends, my health.”

It wouldn’t last.

As Pagonis surveys the action on the multi-purpose gym floor before him he does so not as a coach or literal expert on the subject (though he’s both), but as a symbol of what the program stands for.

Street Soccer Canada is a not-for-profit organization launched in 2004. One that by 2008 had been incorporated as a registered charitable organization and today touches 12 communities from Vancouver, British Columbia to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Much like Street Soccer USA and the 70-odd likeminded national programs across the globe, Street Soccer Canada aims to connect and engage with underprivileged individuals through social inclusion and the support of a community.

When Pagonis first heard of the organization, it was the type of community he craved.

In 2007, while in rehabilitation for an OxyContin addiction brought on by a painkiller habit that haunted him in the wake of his playing career, Pagonis caught wind of the Toronto-based organization connecting men and women in need through sports – through soccer specifically, the very craft on which he had always relied.

“As soon as I stopped playing soccer, the only thing that was left for me to do was continue partying,” Pagonis explains. “The wrong environment, the wrong choices, the wrong friends. That’s how I went from the top to the bottom.”

The downward spiral was a tragic one, a drug-laced journey bottoming out with a middle-aged man left wanting as the game he loved passed him by. But the humbling stint at the bottom only armed the man further in his quest to aid individuals currently dealing with similar burdens.

“[I asked myself] ‘What was I doing then that I’m not doing now?’, and that was kicking a soccer ball. So I’ve always made a quote ‘kick the habit, kick the soccer ball.”

Nowadays Pagonis roams the sidelines of his indoor soccer pitch, a three-year veteran of the program whose role has evolved from beleaguered participant to national head coach. In August of 2011 he manned his team at the annual Homeless World Cup in Paris, France and this year he’ll take them to Mexico City.

As an athlete who participated on the field in Australia’s 2008 Homeless World Cup, he’s the perfect storm of experience.

“I can turn around and say I was the only player out of 56 countries that played in two World Cups. The Homeless World Cup and the National World Cup. So that’s a statement right there, meaning that anybody can get into a bad situation, by choice or by your roots.”

Brian Mullan is a 19-year-old kid from the east end of Hamilton, a former hockey player and current roofer of five years. At 15, Mullan left an abusive situation at home for the sanctuary of independence and has lived alone ever since. Ten months ago, what had finally started to resemble domestic stability came crashing apart.

When a fight with a landlord left the teenager out in the cold, Mullan had no other option but to get in contact with a youth shelter in town. For some a visit to a shelter is a temporary setback, for others, it’s anything but.

”You know when you’re at the bottom and it’s like ‘Kay, what do I do? Shit I have nothing right now’. That was my situation,” says Mullan.

Fortunately for Mullan, on the second day of his stay at the shelter he came in contact with Street Soccer Canada and hasn’t looked back. The routine, he attests, has added a much-needed source of consistency and stability to his life.

“Every Tuesday I know I have somewhere to go, something to do, someone to talk to.”

By the end of his first week at the shelter, Mullan had bounced back and secured accommodations elsewhere, but not before discovering a genuine appreciation of what the program and others like it can offer.

”I think routine is probably the biggest thing in life. You’ve got to keep a routine in order to stay on track and this is on your way to keeping a routine.”

By the end of his first summer in the program, Mullan was representing the national team in Paris and remains a regular member of the Street Soccer Hamilton community with hopes of volunteering with the organization for as long as they’ll have him.

As Pagonis surveys the players pounding the soccer ball up and down the aged gymnasium, he offers pointers and advice, fundamental tips that only a longtime product of the game could know. More than just an encyclopedia of strategy, though, he serves as a source on whom athletes in the program can personally rely – whether playing for their first time or for their 50th.

“Kids come up to us after a while when they feel comfortable with us. They think we’re more friends than anything else. We’re not their case workers, we’re not their parole officers.”

Pagonis is not alone. Although he, along with program director and founder Paul Gregory serve as the figureheads of Street Soccer Canada, it’s with Phil Ruicci that he manages the daily operations of the Hamilton division of the organization.

Ruicci – a 24-year-old therapeutic recreation graduate of nearby Brock University – was charged with the task of championing the recent expansion out to Hamilton, and has reveled in the opportunity.

“Working with these guys is a character builder every day. It’s emotional. For a lot of the guys it’s isolated, they don’t talk to each other, they don’t talk to staff, to anyone, really – so seeing their change from Day 1 until today, they’ve changed drastically. They’ve become the person they used to be when they were happy, when their life was stable, when their family was in tact.”

With Pagonis, Ruicci frequents a handful of shelters in the area, youth shelters like the one Brian Mullan stayed at – but predominantly men’s and adult shelters.

“A large majority [of the burdens that plague Street Soccer athletes] are mental health and drug addiction,” he summarizes, “But there are people that come because they’re vulnerable at that given time.”

Together Ruicci and Pagonis, not only organize and lead practices, scrimmages and tournament entries, but coordinate gym rentals and manage relationships with shelter administration.

Though Street Soccer Hamilton has expanded rapidly in its first year of operation, the ongoing pursuit of accessing shelters and individuals who might benefit from the program’s service is an endless struggle.

Before every scrimmage, clad head-to-toe in Street Soccer training gear, Ruicci and Pagonis visit the roster of shelters within which they’ve been cleared, campaigning for the program and spreading word about the organization. If they can find and improve the situation of even one individual, it’s an afternoon well spent.

“Billy is an ideal person for this job. He’s been in their shoes. The kids and adults that we deal with can’t bring up a topic that Billy hasn’t dealt with.”

That blend of knowledge and familiarity is what makes the pair a sight to behold, whether playing off each other to sell the benefits of the program to a group of reluctant teens smoking casually in the entranceway of one of Hamilton’s tattered shelters, or competing heatedly against one another for bragging rights on the pitch before practice.

The enthusiasm and passion evident across the board speak to the organization’s ability to transcend the harsh reality of the outside world, if even for temporary relief.

Mario Erich, a Croatian immigrant from the former Yugoslavia knows exactly the benefits that that energy can provide. It took three weeks of Pagonis and Ruicci’s salesmanship to convince him to participate for the first time and he hasn’t looked back – even since moving on from the shelter at which he was staying at the time.

“We have intensity [here]. We have a lot of fun, but we have a lot of intensity, and for that small time you forget the burdens that may be burdening you during your day,” the 41-year-old says, “Because you feel light and free here, you can go back and recapture the feeling, even when you feel a little bit stressed about life.”

A framing carpenter by day, Erich – like the bulk of Eastern European migrants – grew up playing soccer, but was reluctant to re-engage in the sport. Initially content passing on the opportunity, consumed at the housing shelter by his own financial setbacks, Erich was eventually convinced.

”People have a choice, eh? We like to take the easy route and to sit back in the stands, but once you come and you become a participant, you see how much fun it is.”

Having already used the sport of boxing to kick struggles with alcohol as a recently-landed Canadian migrant in the early 1990s, it didn’t take long for Erich to appreciate the benefits of physical exercise and the support of the Street Soccer community.

”One of the things that helps when your life gets a little bit chaotic, when you get a curveball, is to have something like routine, something that you can look forward to.”

On that everyone – everyone who has ever watched helplessly as their lives derailed in front of them, at least – can agree.

”We don’t care who you are, we don’t care what your situation is – I mean, we do, we’d love to hear it,” adds Mullan, “But we don’t hold it against anyone because we’ve all been in that spot.”

PHYLICIA TORREVILLAS
METRO VANCOUVER
January 27, 2012

Dropping by to watch and encourage players from the Homeless World Cup -Thanks Kara Lang and Team Canada!

Members of Canada’s national women’s soccer team dropped by Andy Livingston Park on Thursday morning to meet and support dozens of street soccer players.

Even with an Olympics-berth deciding game on their hands, the players of Canada’s national women’s soccer team sneaked in time to give back to their community.

They dropped by to watch and encourage players from the Homeless World Cup team Thursday morning during their training at Andy Livingston Park.

Paula Armstrong, a player on the women’s street soccer team, said it meant a lot to them to meet the players from Team Canada.

“It’s out of this world,” she said. “It’s beyond anything I could’ve imagined coming from the Downtown Eastside and being involved with drugs and poverty.”

Omar Duran, who dropped in to play with his friends on the street soccer team, said the unexpected visitors distracted him from the morning scrimmage.

“They were all very friendly and nice,” he said. “They’re telling us they were nervous for (the game against Mexico), and excited as well.”

“I had my heart divided because I’m Canadian and Mexican,” Duran added. “I told them that and they were like, ‘You have to decide if you’re going to cheer for Canada or Mexico.’ In the end, they won my heart and I’m going to cheer for Canada.”

North Delta’s Chelsea Buckland, a forward for the national team, said the team is in a positive mindset and pumped up to play on Friday.

“There’s definitely the pressure of playing against a great Mexico squad,” she said. “Their fan base is going to be up to par with our Canadian fans.”

“This is do-or-die,” Buckland added. “We’re going to put everything on the line because this is it. This game is the determination if we go to the Olympics or not.”